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Jonathan Jackson: My name is Jonathan Jackson. I'm. A senior teaching fellow in policing and security here at Birmingham City University.
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Jonathan Jackson: and I'm. Joined today by an esteemed group of panel members.
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Jonathan Jackson: which include a retired and current serving senior officers
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Jonathan Jackson: academics.
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That's what it is.
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Jonathan Jackson: I'll start with Ronald Winch, who was a senior teaching fellow in policing at Birmingham City University.
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Jonathan Jackson: What German former deputy Assistant Commissioner
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Jonathan Jackson: with the Metropolitan Police, and now President of the London Policing College. Dr. Laura Hammond, who is an associate professor of policing and forensic psychology at Birmingham City University
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Jonathan Jackson: Detective Superintendent Ron Locke, who is currently seconded with the National Police Chiefs Council.
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Jonathan Jackson: and last, but by no means least.
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Jonathan Jackson: Chief Superintendent Hannah Wheeler, from the Metropolitan Police. Now the structure of today's event will consist of short reflections from each of our panel, which will be about 3 to 5 min.
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Jonathan Jackson: and they will examine specific areas of their Casey review that they feel are significant.
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Jonathan Jackson: This will be followed by a detailed panel discussion of several call themes.
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Jonathan Jackson: and then we'll finish by taking questions from the virtual audience.
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Jonathan Jackson: Now I have to admit we have a large number of audience members today, and I will do my best to get through as many of the questions as I possibly can, and many, many apologies, if i'm unable to get to your question. But we very much appreciate the comments that we make.
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Jonathan Jackson: I'd like to take this opportunity to thank a number of different people.
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Jonathan Jackson: The first is policing insight. We are very kindly agreed to sponsor the event today, and will be disseminating quite a number of findings in their publication.
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Jonathan Jackson: I'd also like to thank the College of policing who have been very, very supportive, and I've actually moved meetings around. I've been aware of that to allow as many officers and staff to attend. So thank you very much for sharing
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Jonathan Jackson: this event.
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Jonathan Jackson: And then, finally, my thanks must go
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Jonathan Jackson: to Carolina and Joe from our external relations team, who, without them we certainly wouldn't be able to have got this event off the ground. So thank you very much indeed.
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Jonathan Jackson: So in terms of provided. So what about framework for today.
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Jonathan Jackson: and I want to actually start with a quote. And this quote is actually from Timothy Brain's book.
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Jonathan Jackson: which is a history of policing in England and Wales since 1,974. And this quote is taken from the final sentence of the final
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Jonathan Jackson: out of his book and he says.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thus this history ends much as it began
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Jonathan Jackson: with the service, facing a period of massive uncertainty.
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Jonathan Jackson: However, the service is in immeasurably better shape to face the future; that it was in January.
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Jonathan Jackson: in 1,974. The 35 year journey has been one of ultimate progress.
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Jonathan Jackson: although the course has been far from smooth
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Jonathan Jackson: or predictable. It has indeed been. It's a bit of a journey.
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Jonathan Jackson: Now I start with that quote simply because of the fact that if we look at the last 3 or 4 years, we may forgive the public for thinking that that quote is actually entirely inaccurate.
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Jonathan Jackson: Little progress has been made. and this is some of the most problematic years
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Jonathan Jackson: of British policing.
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Jonathan Jackson: Now, today's session, I want to ask all participants, including the panel. to consider several hours. This will include not only to review and reflect on the report
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Jonathan Jackson: examining medium and short-term solutions. but I also want this
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Jonathan Jackson: space to be safe.
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Jonathan Jackson: in which we speculate potentially revolutionary practices that may be needed
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Jonathan Jackson: to be considered for the recommendations to be effective.
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Jonathan Jackson: This will include restructuring rename me and the redistribution of responsibilities across policing.
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Jonathan Jackson: and the discussion as to whether a Royal Commission is needed to determine the future of operational practice.
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Jonathan Jackson: An input to my
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Jonathan Jackson: So, without further ado.
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Jonathan Jackson: I would like to introduce our first speaker. which is Rod, German, please. So if Rod, if you could take the
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Jonathan Jackson: well and
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Jonathan Jackson: give us your thoughts on the Casey Review. So please
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Rod Jarman: thank you, Jonathan, and good afternoon to everybody. So I feel like the old man of the panel having over 40 odd years experience in policing.
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Rod Jarman: I joined in 1,979, and all of my service was in the met
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Rod Jarman: and that means that I've lived through the Carmen reports the first and report.
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Rod Jarman: And now this new review from.
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Rod Jarman: and I like to say that all of them, I think of fundamentally improved policing are made a big
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Rod Jarman: impact, and I believe this report will.
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Rod Jarman: So what I was just going to touch on these 3 things that I think this means in terms of
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Rod Jarman: police change and police development. The first one is around community policing, and I think what's
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Rod Jarman: Ellis Casey has really clarified is the withdrawal from community bracing. That's happened on the ground, not on the grounds, but because of austerity, but the closing police stations. The removal of Pcsos.
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Rod Jarman: the downgrading of this is a as a core part of policing.
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Rod Jarman: and the impact that has on confidence.
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Rod Jarman: The second bit is this change of
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Rod Jarman: understanding of the importance of dealing with violence against women and girls, it becoming a priority
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Rod Jarman: at a level of discussion, and yet a lack of resourcing in terms of the number of people investigating rapes
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Rod Jarman: and the number of people dealing with domestic abuse. So both those, the number of allegations gone up massively. But resourcing is not followed.
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Rod Jarman: and I think, if you put those together and look at the models of common police confidence, we know that
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Rod Jarman: the public believe. If the public believes the police understand their problems. They
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Rod Jarman: trying to deal with them, and they're acting fairly. The confidence will go up. but it feels that what Casey is really under under underscored.
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Rod Jarman: It's a lack of clarity about the understanding of what the real issues of people and policing are, and a lack of demonstrably dealing with those issues. So from the community perspective, I think it gives us a really positive way forward
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Rod Jarman: from police officer perspective.
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Rod Jarman: I think the the main aspect which I really hope will be taken forward is the ability to address
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Rod Jarman: integrity.
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Rod Jarman: and I think the problem, probably also underpinned by financial
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Rod Jarman: cutbacks is the supervision ratios in policing.
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Rod Jarman: We've gone to such large numbers of Sars and to constables.
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Rod Jarman: so inspectors to Sergeant, and these units are expected to be able to maintain a really detailed understanding of what the issues are for frontline officers, and it's just not there.
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Rod Jarman: I think the other thing for frontline offices is the perceived
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Rod Jarman: that the outcomes from this report have on all offices, and everybody who I know in the police
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Rod Jarman: gets this emotional response to to these sorts of reports because they feel of it as a specific personal slur, and we need to find a way of dealing with that because it's not. Police officers do a phenomenally good job
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Rod Jarman: phenomenally large amount of the time. I also think that the hey area
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Rod Jarman: for police officers are they dealing with the predatory and unacceptable behavior that's on been identified. but also creating a situation where people feel they can speak up, and when they are supported to speak up about problems, and that shift, if it comes from Casey, which I believe it will will massively improve
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Rod Jarman: the ability for officers from different backgrounds, and
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Rod Jarman: we mean
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Rod Jarman: people from different sexual orientations. All of that
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Rod Jarman: pressure that is put on people who, showing any sort of difference from the male white majority, give them the chance to speak up clearly, to talk about the issues and for them to be addressed
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Rod Jarman: from an organization. I think this is the third of not just wanted to touch on.
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Rod Jarman: I I love the way that some some of the biases were identified. Normally we talk about my bias in terms of racial disparity.
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Rod Jarman: but I think the optimism. the elitism.
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Rod Jarman: and the initiative itis. These 3 key areas really pick up for me some of the problems with policing the way it's led at the moment.
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Rod Jarman: and a need for police leadership to think very differently about how it responds to these issues. A more strategic, long-term thought process rather than dealing with the issues that are in front of us on a daily basis.
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Rod Jarman: and I think the last bit for me is around hubris and humility
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Rod Jarman: the concept of institutional racism. I'm. Sure we were discussed this afternoon, but a need to actually grasp
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Rod Jarman: that there are lots of different aspects involved in policing, but we can learn from other people.
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Rod Jarman: and they evidence around hubris. A friend of mine, who is a an academic, was talking about this report to me, and he said I was really disappointed, because when I looked at it, where was the evidence?
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Rod Jarman: There is tons of evidence for everything that's in here.
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Rod Jarman: but somehow we seem to think that it is minimalized. We're not actually looking for it in the way we should. So for me. Casey is a great opportunity
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Rod Jarman: for a change.
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Rod Jarman: I'm not sure we need the massive changes of being discussed. I think these are all things that can be done. but at the core of a lot of them are the way resourcing decisions have been made
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Jonathan Jackson: lovely. Thank you very much for your input there, Rod. I really appreciate it.
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Jonathan Jackson: Dr. Laura Hammond. I'd like now to turn to you for your thoughts, please.
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Laura Hammond: Hi there and welcome everybody. It's a real moment to be here talking to you today
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Laura Hammond: by way of introduction. I am a Researcher and I'm. Director of the Primary Society Research Center. Here at the University.
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Laura Hammond: Much of my work focuses on evidence-based practice and policing, looking at investigative decision, making
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Laura Hammond: and enhancing please
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Laura Hammond: practices and efficacy
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Laura Hammond: with a particular focus on the quality, diversity, and inclusivity in relation to placing.
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Laura Hammond: And in addition, I do an awful lot of work with third sector parties, with
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Laura Hammond: charities, and the victim advocates looking at the experiences of women and girls affected by violence.
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Laura Hammond: and
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Laura Hammond: how we can utilize that lift experience in an informing and an enhancing responses to my.
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Laura Hammond: So that really drives kind of my.
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Laura Hammond: I suppose, Take on the report, and then thinking about how. as it falls, and
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Laura Hammond: as an institution policing
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Laura Hammond: the met policing more generally moves forward from. This is thinking about how we can take an evidence informed approach
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Laura Hammond: to tackling the issues identified. And so, looking at and thinking about how we can draw from existing evidence
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Laura Hammond: about effective responses and use that in informing effective responses.
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Laura Hammond: thinking about and learning from what has worked previously what has been done to work elsewhere, but also thinking about what Hasn't worked.
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Laura Hammond: So thinking about to the recommendations and that were made, and changes that were implemented
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Laura Hammond: after the mechanism report, and and where things maybe Haven't had the design or expected effects that they perhaps we're intended to have.
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Laura Hammond: And I think key to all of this is that the evidence that we're drawing from in this should come from all involved key stakeholders.
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Laura Hammond: So we need to be in terms of determining the responses, and how we act on the issues identified, involving communities involving third sector parties.
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Laura Hammond: Research is academics as well as victims. Those with the experiences who are effectively expert in terms of these issues and challenges, and perhaps best place in terms of thinking about how we can
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Laura Hammond: develop in a way of tackling these issues. And I think we also need to be very careful to include police offices and staff from all levels.
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Laura Hammond: because from a lot of conversations over the years with
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Laura Hammond: various individuals working in policing roles.
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Laura Hammond: I know that some of the issues identified by Casey really resonate with many of them. You know, from the case of report, that many of them are affected
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Laura Hammond: negatively by some of these issues on a daily basis. Drawing from what bomb said previously.
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Laura Hammond: i'd like to kind of reflect on the added where we refer to back apples. And more typically. Now, we
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Laura Hammond: using the term bad app to identify a few
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Laura Hammond: that individuals within an organization. But the origins of the phrase we're all more focused about the fact that we have a really good at all. We have the surprise, and what we want to do is we have to get rid of
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Laura Hammond: the
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Laura Hammond: that's free.
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Laura Hammond: So I think what we need to be doing is pushing towards kind of co-development to creation of effective responses and solutions to the issues raised.
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Laura Hammond: involving all of those different parties and individuals, those different stakeholders that I identified. And what we really need to be thinking is about tangible mechanisms
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Laura Hammond: that we can use to achieve the various different objectives that are set
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Laura Hammond: meaningful measures of success and successful outcome, including, thank you very clearly about what ultimately successful.
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Laura Hammond: It may be that we need to look towards more alternative measures, to appropriately have to change. You know from research that actually the minds only on up to 2 and all surveys or scales, and there is not necessarily effective in understanding
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Laura Hammond: design changes in terms of performance.
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Laura Hammond: We need to acknowledge that some of the biggest impacts reforms the the possible reforms that may be made may not necessarily be.
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Laura Hammond: and some may be on the control of the that some might be much more than that. But I think just to finish, i'd like to.
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Laura Hammond: I don't think some of the issues that we're seeing are by any means limited to the met
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Laura Hammond: or to policing as an organization. I think it's a lot more than that. I don't think it's institutional. I think we're talking about more systemic
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Laura Hammond: issues embedded in today's society. So what then, needed to tackle these systemic issues and failings is a border response, which is as case they identified
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Laura Hammond: all of our responsibility.
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Jonathan Jackson: Lovely. Thank you very much, Dr. Hammond, for your Input: there, I'd like to. Now turn to Ron Winch.
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Jonathan Jackson: please.
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Jonathan Jackson: who appears to be coming live from a mock
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Jonathan Jackson: magistrates court at Birmingham. So thank you.
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Ron Winch: Yeah. Good afternoon, Josh. And good afternoon, everybody. And thank you for joining us this afternoon of this Webinar. Okay, so my name is Ron Wynch. I'm a senior teaching fellow here at Birmingham City University, and prior to my academic career. I was a serving police officer for over 30 years. I originally joined the Metropolitan Police in
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Ron Winch: 1,987. Before transferring to West Midlands police in the 1,900 and Ninetys and I'll confine my remarks, if I may.
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Ron Winch: a Jonathan to talking about actually
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Ron Winch: the kind of effects of Casey as I, as I see them at the moment, and perhaps suggest
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Ron Winch: some ways of moving forwardwards. Now, of course, Casey is
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Ron Winch: initially, of course, about the Metropolitan Police. But we all know that whatever occurs in London and within the Metropolitan place has a an effect to other areas of the country, and i'll just pick up on.
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Ron Winch: if I may, on some remarks that Rod made around initiative itis and living and working through a number of different
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Ron Winch: watershed moments, and you could be forgiven, and it the public could be forgiven for suggesting that we've had that many watershed moments that we feel like we're drowning within these issues. Now I sense that this watershed moment isn't just another
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Ron Winch: that actually it has real impact. And I think it has real impact for a number of reasons. First of all.
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Ron Winch: Baroness Casey links
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Ron Winch: institutional racism with institutional misogyny and institutional homophobia. So these areas are linked together. So it's not possible
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Ron Winch: for senior leadership within the police service. And in this context the met to say, Well, okay, that's that can be parked over there because it's about institutional races. And then it's about
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Ron Winch: systemic racism.
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Ron Winch: However, the the police service wants to accept the institutional nature, and we'll touch on that. I'm. Sure in relation to the observations by National Police Chiefs Council last year, where, as a group of police leaders, chief constables, and the commissioners agreed that the 2,
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Ron Winch: a term institutional racism would not be accepted by by the service as a whole. and I think we can talk about that as we go with some views around, whether it would be reasonable for it. I know Casey's view is that it would be entirely reasonable for the police service to accept those
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Ron Winch: those terms in relation to actually, Casey holds up in the mirror to the police service, and the role is when a mirror is held up you look at the mirror. You reflect on what it what it shows.
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Ron Winch: and you you're able to ask yourself some very difficult question. So i'll now come on to this aspect of initiative initiative, or, or, as I also refer to it, as planism.
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Ron Winch: and I kind of feel for many offices across the country, and particularly in the Met, who are at the moment trying to make sense of what it actually means for them in context of
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Ron Winch: the job that they do in the role that they're in in relation to trying to make sense of.
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Ron Winch: You know this, the response of of the met in relation to Casey, and and you only need to look at the turnaround plan
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Ron Winch: from the met, and look at some of the sort of design, outcomes and interventions that the turnaround plan looks at in relation to reducing crime, increasing trust and confidence.
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Ron Winch: and
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Ron Winch: achieving high standards, which is the turn of our plan, and see the the kind of outcomes that it's looking for. It's. It feels very aspirational. and it feels, and I can't help wondering, having been through, You know, within my policing career a number of initiative plans that come from the center
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Ron Winch: that come from.
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Ron Winch: They come on team.
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Ron Winch: they expecting it to land with the rank and file and those in between, trying to make sense of it. Actually will it land in in place, and will it actually make a difference in terms of service delivery, because we all know
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Ron Winch: the policing organizations in particular. Not all together on common with other organizations.
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Ron Winch: Have you a number of organizational sovereigns? That is, people are all sorts of levels.
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Ron Winch: It could be a constable on a team who is particularly influential that actually has more power with the people who they work with and the people that they interact with
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Ron Winch: than the Chief Constable or the Commissioner.
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Ron Winch: or any of the commands team, let alone the local superintendent or chief inspector. So these institutional sovereigns have a great deal of power. And i'm left wondering
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Ron Winch: Actually, how does Casey make a difference to those individuals in the service they deliver? Because essentially that's what it's all about it's about
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Ron Winch: policing at the point of
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Ron Winch: deliver it.
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Ron Winch: and i'm sure we will talk about. You know that and other issues as we go forward this afternoon in relation to the police education, and how we professionalize the police service going forward 250.
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Ron Winch: The responses
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Ron Winch: to Casey in in relation to that phrase of police service needs to when confronted by well founded criticism, needs to respond with a willingness to change. I think the police are there. This is undoubtedly a watershed moment.
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Ron Winch: What makes it different from other watershed moments is that it links so many other characteristics, behaviors, attitudes together. and those need to be tackled together. Not just in isolation.
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Ron Winch: So thanks, Jonathan. That's that's the conclusion of my remarks in opening. Thank you.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much from for that I very much appreciate it. I'd like now to turn to a detective Superintendent Ron Lock, please, sir.
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Ron Lock: Thank you, John. Can you hear me? Okay.
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Ron Lock: Can hear you. Fine! Thank you. Excellent! So good afternoon, everyone. My name is Ron Locke, so i'm a Hampshire and i'll avoid our police officer, however countless accounted to the National Police Chiefs Council, which is
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Ron Lock: on behalf of the 44 forces. And now, just to be clear if I declare that i'm. Representing today, on my personal capacity. I'm not speaking for the 44 chiefs, and i'm sure they would be nervous if I was sent here one to talk on their behalf.
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Ron Lock: And so
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Ron Lock: I guess, just like everyone else, you know, I was disturbed by the evidence, and you know the evidence to run misogyny one in 10 women experiencing sexual assaults
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Ron Lock: and harassment
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Ron Lock: that is alarming and shameful of being part of an organization which is described as a boys club.
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Ron Lock: and whilst I've never worked in a met. When you look at the previous evidence of our forces.
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Ron Lock: I consider the report to reflect all across policing across the country.
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Ron Lock: When you look at the hard case loads being managed by detectives.
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Ron Lock: So, unfortunately, during the austerity cuts that did happen, and it's still happening now on the case loads
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Ron Lock: because of the shortage of detectives and police forces that to make some difficult decisions, not saying, i'm justifying what was reported in there. But I think it's important. We're quite transparent, and this is not just a met, and we did lose out in that capacity of managing the complex work, which is very important.
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Ron Lock: Now, my day jobs around race, which will be what i'll focus on sharing a bit of my personal and lived experience.
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Ron Lock: And
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Ron Lock: in regards to the case and review on race on that front. I wasn't shocked. There's nothing in there which
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Ron Lock: was new to me. And so, if you look at the previous reviews, inspections.
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Ron Lock: disparity reports, and they support her findings.
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Ron Lock: but also suggest the majority of black people.
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Ron Lock: including serving or retired black police officers and staff.
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Ron Lock: would also support my assessment.
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Ron Lock: I repeat it again, this is not just a met issue
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Ron Lock: which obviously concerns you, You know Cap concerns a lot of us. especially within the black community. So I think if you look back, you know the murder of Steam and Lawrence, and which is a trigger point for a lot of people in in 94.
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Ron Lock: What we've seen since that the numerous reviews I've gone on. Confidence has actually significantly got lower for black communities, and we keep failing them.
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Ron Lock: And the Review did conclude the same findings as a Lami review in 2,017, which is quite a relevant review, because
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Ron Lock: in terms of political parties is actually done by David, like David lummy labor, but actually a Conservative in Parliament. So that was a cross party review which again should have treated with some actions around reforming.
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Ron Lock: So again you look back to 1981.
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Ron Lock: The Brixton Riots
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Ron Lock: there was some recommendations meant then, and some of those you know, talking about more training for police officers, recruiting more ethnic minorities, and us 42 years ago.
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Ron Lock: And we're still talking about that now.
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Ron Lock: So I think
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Ron Lock: current in policing where we are is we've got the the rest action plan, which is actually triggered. Following the death of the murder of George Floyd and the B. And I movement.
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Ron Lock: The 44 chiefs made a commitment to become an anti-racist police service and start addressing some of those issues and build trust
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Ron Lock: disappointingly that progress has been slow.
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Ron Lock: so we still need the full forces just to stop getting the action implemented.
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Ron Lock: Now I think this review is relevant, as already touched on and by, roared around that cross-connection. Now, we're linking in the misogyny and homophobia.
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Ron Lock: I guess my concern is just to make sure
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Ron Lock: we prioritize. You know we do work on everything, and
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Ron Lock: would jointly look to address these issues.
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Ron Lock: But also it's important. We do that in partnership
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Ron Lock: with the communities. So the strong links that we talked about. That's I think that's quite important, and our leaders as well need to step up and do things differently.
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Ron Lock: because what we know is that current approaches we've been taking so far have not been working.
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Ron Lock: Thank you.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much from so you all points that. And finally, i'd like to turn to Chief Superintendent
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on a wheeler, please.
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Hannah Wheeler: Good afternoon, everyone.
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Hannah Wheeler: My name's Hannah Wheeler i'm my chief superintendent in the met I've been in the met 29 years.
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Hannah Wheeler: and I have to say this this report shocked me.
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Hannah Wheeler: I
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Hannah Wheeler: feel personally accountable and personally responsible for
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Hannah Wheeler: for the report, and also for fixing it and trying to to understand why we discriminate
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Hannah Wheeler: why we we lead badly. and why we've let our communities down, which were the 3 sort of main findings from the report. and
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Hannah Wheeler: I guess i'm in a slightly different position in that
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Hannah Wheeler: I was. I've been away from the met for 5 years on so comment to the
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Hannah Wheeler: inspectorate, I. Cfrs, and then during the pandemic, was seconded to the National Police Coordination Center.
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Hannah Wheeler: So when I came back to policing last, January.
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Hannah Wheeler: whilst I found that officers and staff still cared deeply about the public and the victims that they were dealing with, they were really hampered internally by a variety of factors.
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Hannah Wheeler: And actually I spent a fair amount of time, a lot of time actually, with Baroness Casey and her team. When they came to speak to my officers and staff and myself.
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and in many ways
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Hannah Wheeler: what they were finding was what
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Hannah Wheeler: I had found just some few months earlier. I found myself in a similar position to them. In the questions I was asking about the met.
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Hannah Wheeler: and I was asking why we were doing things in a certain way. Why didn't officers have the support?
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Hannah Wheeler: Why didn't they have the right kit, the technology, the equipment?
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Hannah Wheeler: Why didn't we have enough officers? We've got more officers than ever. They're just not in the right places. So what I found was that we have a very young and experienced workforce.
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Hannah Wheeler: and we haven't been supporting them we haven't been training them. and that has been leading them to
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Hannah Wheeler: learning on the job in a largely unsupervised way.
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Hannah Wheeler: Now this means that people are learning and observing behaviors from what's around them.
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Hannah Wheeler: And this is then as what has led to this internal culture that we're now having to battle with.
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Hannah Wheeler: we haven't set out standards and been and been proper in our supervision. So people have looked and learned from what was nearby, and that hasn't always been the right thing to do.
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Hannah Wheeler: There was little explanation you know about about why this had happened. but it was a it's a culmination culmination of factors.
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Hannah Wheeler: I found, as Baroness Casey did, huge numbers of officers on restricted duties for a variety of reasons.
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Hannah Wheeler: You know we we do a very difficult job. Our off front-line officers do a very difficult job. They see things that no one else should see. and we need to support them and look after them.
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Hannah Wheeler: But whilst on restricted duties, officers weren't being managed properly leading to feelings of isolation, and, you know, feeling disenfranchised.
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and I don't think the pandemic helped
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Hannah Wheeler: with this at all and we have had real issues with supervision during the pandemic
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Hannah Wheeler: lots of acting up to fill positions where we had supervisory gaps. but with no guidance, and mentoring to support them.
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Hannah Wheeler: So you know, really, we're setting people up to fail. which is, is not something I I can tolerate, or you know I want to see at all one of the critical issues that I think Baroness Casey raises that i'm going to focus on because it does link into the role that I do now. I'm the career, management, lead and talent. Development need for the map.
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Hannah Wheeler: and i'm deeply passionate about it is appraisal or performance development reviews. They've never been given the proper focus and support that they should have done. Staff need
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Hannah Wheeler: development. They need to be steered and rewarded, and ultimately
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Hannah Wheeler: recommended to go on courses. Have, you know, really strong career conversations
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Hannah Wheeler: and conversations where
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Hannah Wheeler: supervisors can learn to understand their staff, what skills they have, what their sort of desires and passions are where they want to be, either laterally or or, you know, upwardly mobile in in in policing.
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Hannah Wheeler: So our Pdr performance development reviews the completion of those is woeful. In the met. As was pointed out, 18% of them. They're viewed as complicated bureaucratic and administrative burden.
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Hannah Wheeler: They should be driven by leaders and supervisors. I've always made sure my my officers and staff have got Pdrs.
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Hannah Wheeler: But we need to be given the time to sit down with our staff and do them properly.
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Hannah Wheeler: This is changing
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Hannah Wheeler: absolutely. We have launched my performance and development, which is a very so progressive
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Hannah Wheeler: online intuitive system where we'll be holding those career conversations with our officers and staff.
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Hannah Wheeler: But
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Hannah Wheeler: again, Baroness Casey references. You know that any new system or any process we introduce in policing is, it's always viewed cynically, and that is our real leadership challenge.
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Hannah Wheeler: How do we culturally change the mindset of the organization, and that is totally
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Hannah Wheeler: on me as a leader that is on us as the leadership team.
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Hannah Wheeler: We have to invest in people.
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Hannah Wheeler: and we have to make sure that people know we are serious about investing in them and investing in our communities.
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Hannah Wheeler: People are our biggest asset.
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Hannah Wheeler: and they people across the board internally and externally other people that we've been letting down.
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Hannah Wheeler: So this really is, you know, a real.
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Hannah Wheeler: a real cool to to say that you know
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Hannah Wheeler: we have to do better. We absolutely have to thank you.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much, Hannah, for your comments there.
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Jonathan Jackson: So, though that is the end of the kind of short presentation section of today's panel. So I just like to invite all the team just to turn their cameras on.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much. Excellent. Okay. So we have a number of different themes that i'd like to kind of explore and tease out, based upon
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Jonathan Jackson: the comments that have just been made there. And i'm going to start actually with with Rod, German, if I may
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Jonathan Jackson: just by with me. Well, it's been 30 years. and as of course, we're on lot mentioned as well. If we got, we can go further than back than that, of course, but it's been 30 years since the Mcpherson
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Jonathan Jackson: report, and yet we're still talking about toxic cultures within the Metropolitan Police. And I simple question to you is, Why?
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Rod Jarman: Well, I I think
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Rod Jarman: one of the problems we have is that and I've done this in this sort of conversation here is we connect all these 3 things together.
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Rod Jarman: So the toxic, conscious that we may have now in policing what we're discussing now in policing are not the toxic cultures we had 30 years ago.
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Rod Jarman: They are very different. They are much less overt
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Rod Jarman: and much more complex in what's underpinning them. So I remember at the time Stephen Lawrence.
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Rod Jarman: a a far different organization, where
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Rod Jarman: there wasn't the focus on some of the issues that that led to racial crime or crime against people because of their racial hatred. Crime grew to such a level that a number of murders happened to Greenwich, and nobody really connected them together
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Rod Jarman: reach such a stage where we didn't put enough resources in to investigate murder all of those things that were happening. Then we're significantly different from now.
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Rod Jarman: What is the saying is that the root of them? It's racism. It's misogyny as homophobia is a failure of the police to deal effectively with diversity. and to it feel
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Rod Jarman: that it can actually support its own people who have got different views.
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Rod Jarman: So I think the the big issue for policing at the moment is
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Rod Jarman: trying to remain homogeneous with a set of values and a set of principles that everyone can agree with. and at the same time understanding that people have a different backgrounds, different contexts within which they can apply those values.
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Rod Jarman: and instead of trying to come, just deal with the difference what we should be doing. We're dealing with is where people are not being treated fairly and properly
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Rod Jarman: so. Our focus should be much more of looking at those offices who are not being
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Rod Jarman: progressed. I think it's a
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Rod Jarman: For years now we have seen the data that women are not getting progressed as quickly as men. We've seen that black people are not getting progressed as quickly as white people. We know that black people are being
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Rod Jarman: more disciplined and more harshly disciplined than white people, and when you put ethnicity and gender together
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Rod Jarman: you get an even worse picture. We've known that for a long time. but the organization in some degree
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Rod Jarman: cannot grasp the need to think very differently about it. But how it relates with people. So the sorts of thing Hannah was talking about there in terms of the
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Rod Jarman: professional development reviews should be for the both for the benefit of the individual to develop their career
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Rod Jarman: rather than being, for the benefit of the organization to manage its performance. 2 things are interconnected, but we get the focus in the wrong place, and I think I think it was. Ronnie was talking about this sort of top down
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Rod Jarman: approach
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Rod Jarman: means that the offices at the bottom aren't we listen to enough and not cared for enough.
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Rod Jarman: and until we start caring for them and supervising them properly and and addressing these things before they become big issues, they will carry on. So I think that we've had a lot of change in 30 years.
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Rod Jarman: but I don't think I think we're dealing with something else now that we were 30 years ago, and therefore we have a lot more change still to do.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much.
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Jonathan Jackson: Ron Lock. Can I just come to you, please? Would you agree with the statements made by rob German there, and and if so, because I know it was, it was yourself, of course, that mentioned even we can go for the back of the person.
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Ron Lock: Yeah. So yeah, partly. But for me.
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Ron Lock: the evidence in this review shows that the map
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Ron Lock: and policing again, I've already said, this is not just a met in general has not done enough
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Ron Lock: to implement the recommendations.
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Ron Lock: So we know from Mcpherson to the seventh recommendation. Some of those weren't taken up
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Ron Lock: so initially. Some actions were done. but what we've seen is trusted. Confidence has dropped.
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Ron Lock: and
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Ron Lock: racial disparities have continued to affect by people. So when I consider some of the figures we saw in the case review around confidence 50% of black officers experienced racism.
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Ron Lock: I can't see how things you know. I've moved on. We've done a recent national black work for survey as part of the reception plan. and.
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Ron Lock: you know, nearly after the officers to us, they didn't fit in the police culture.
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Ron Lock: and a lot more, leaving high numbers. When they complain, they often send it out.
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Ron Lock: which show with 81% more likely to be subject to misconduct procedure 81%. So it cannot be bad. Something is going wrong somewhere there.
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Ron Lock: And so for me, policing has not prioritized retention and progression. I was already, you know, discussed, and i'm glad some of the pantan has talked about.
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Ron Lock: but also, I think, one of the key recommendations that was made.
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Ron Lock: and I feel need some urgent attention.
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Ron Lock: It's around a culture within. The specialists elite units
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Ron Lock: all forces. I've got some of these units.
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Ron Lock: However, it tends to be. They have a lot of experience.
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Ron Lock: knowledge, and opportunity. Staff
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Ron Lock: managers have been there sometimes use that as a commodity or power. and sometimes people are not moved on. and it makes it really difficult to challenge and reform that culture.
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Ron Lock: and which is what we described as so of that boys club up because people are trying to fit in.
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Ron Lock: so i'll be keen for all forces just to pick up on that point. I was expecting a minute. I think you know the recommendations about this disbanding one of those departments.
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Ron Lock: But i'll yeah, i'm be surprised. We Haven't grasped that because I also is up at the evidence and other forces where you find these teams, and it being left, and that just needs to be tucked up just to break that up and disrupt that.
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Ron Lock: So, coach, and what is working?
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you. I I saw Laura nodding ahead, so I I I go quickly to you, Laura, and to follow up those points.
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Laura Hammond: Well, yeah, I I I think actually on the head. And that was one of the things for me was particularly interesting about the Casey Report is that she did single out some of those in the operational units.
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Laura Hammond: One of the comments she made that does resonate with me, and i'm sure with many of you is that
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Laura Hammond: certain individuals who are maybe those who are more pro to the sort of biases, the store, the views, the racist attitudes, and things.
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Laura Hammond: Then the report identified, all
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Laura Hammond: unfortunately going to be drawn to
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Laura Hammond: careers such as policing because of
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Laura Hammond: the sort of powers associated with working within those kind of roles, and then within policing towards those kind of specialist units potentially, because again, if the enhanced and increased powers.
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and I think that's one of the things that causes problems. But again, I want to for size
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Laura Hammond: that I don't think it's anything that's by any means you need to map what we see is that a lot of those type of individuals with those type of attitudes tend to be gone as well to things like the armed forces.
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Laura Hammond: And so it comes to some of the discussion made in the report, and made subsequently by others around, thinking about the setting
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Laura Hammond: processes, thinking about who, supplying to these roles, or once within a place, organization who is applying for those specialist operations roles, and whether one dollars
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Laura Hammond: they are actually appropriate, you should be being appointed into those kind of role someone actually said to me.
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Laura Hammond: I I find it quite insightful that when people are putting themselves forward for particular things very that they are possibly the one to
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Laura Hammond: really should not be actually being put into those kind of roles. Someone actually refer to the government and politicians, and you can see something in that the more forcefully someone wants to go down a particular line.
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Laura Hammond: perhaps the more you have to question the motivations underpinning it. But I do think it comes down to looking more at the kind of testing recruitment processes into it.
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Laura Hammond: I was encouraged to see that.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you, Laura Ron. You have your hand up. You want to make a point.
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Ron Winch: Yeah, thanks, Jonathan, if I may pick up on. I mean, I completely agree with with what's been said, I have to say, and and if I just may pick up on comments that Rod made around the changing nature.
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Ron Winch: toxic values, attitudes, and behaviors, and the common denominator around racism going over back over decades. And
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Ron Winch: I would also add to that that what doesn't seem to have changed over the decades, and it is a real in Diamond isn't it that we've been speaking about these issues for decades
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Ron Winch: that it's, as Casey put it, this kind of professional humiliation
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Ron Winch: that senior officers seem to display when things are seem to go wrong.
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Ron Winch: And I think we're seeing some of you didn't solve that, and I think you know we've had this suspect of
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Ron Winch: whether the Commissioner accepts the institutional nature of racism, misogyny, and homophobia, which seems to be resisted
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Ron Winch: at the moment.
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Ron Winch: and whether that's on the steer of the Home Secretary, perhaps, but in actual fact, I would go back
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Ron Winch: to February of last year with the National Police Chiefs Council that actually together the the the senior leaders of policing got together and said, actually, we're not going to accept this
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Ron Winch: because we don't recognize it as part of our organizations. We've seen the Chief Council of Greater Manchester Haven't. We recently speaking about this, and rejecting the the notion of
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Ron Winch: institutional racism.
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Ron Winch: Now, whether we call it institution, or whether we call it systemic.
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Ron Winch: You know the public will be looking at policing, thinking. We don't understand the difference between the 2
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Ron Winch: policing needs to, you know.
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Ron Winch: Wake up to the issues that face it.
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Ron Winch: And we've been talking about this for decades. So I I think, going forward, and I have to say. I think there is conference in the senior leadership at the Met my rally and let out in. I think you know, brilliantly talented senior police officers.
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Ron Winch: and if anybody can turn it around they can. But it's going to take some time, and my fear is that looking at sort of 2 years, or just under. For to a next general election, who knows what the attitudes and the values might be of the next Home Secretary?
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Ron Winch: That, and also already comments from Keir Starmer about changing the name of the mat and breaking the met up. We're looking at a collapsing timeframe, unfortunately. So you know who knows what the future might hold.
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Jonathan Jackson: Okay, Thank you very much. From actually. I was just about to come to you, Hannah, but before I do, I I just to build on Ron's point there just a because of time.
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Jonathan Jackson: This
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Jonathan Jackson: denial, if to certain extent of the term institutional by obviously Sir Matt Riley by the Home Secretary, and, as Ron pointed out, Steve Watson, the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, on an interview with Lbc.
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Jonathan Jackson: Yesterday, I think it was
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Jonathan Jackson: was again sort of saying that he wouldn't accept that term if it been applied to Gmp.
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Jonathan Jackson: But you've also, of course, got Steve Harton from the head of the Police Federation accepting
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Jonathan Jackson: the term institutional, Hanna, can I come to you if that was your point, anyway? Great? But if not, can I come to you to pick up some of those other points.
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Hannah Wheeler: Yeah, I mean, I was. I was just actually going to come in and sort of echo what Ron had said about the senior leadership team.
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Hannah Wheeler: I mean
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Hannah Wheeler: in No, Mr. Alley and and Lin Owens, we've we've got.
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Hannah Wheeler: We've got passionate. dedicated people
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Hannah Wheeler: we we meet so regularly now as a command team.
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Hannah Wheeler: You know we had a whole day yesterday talking about
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Hannah Wheeler: this talking about the turnaround plan, talking about how we need to stop ourselves jumping in and doing initiativeitis. You know our frontline are waiting for us to say right, do a return. Do this, do that.
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Hannah Wheeler: But we need to be more reflective because this needs to be a profound change.
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Hannah Wheeler: and it needs to really really
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Hannah Wheeler: matter. And we need to reconnect and rebuild that trust internally and externally.
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Hannah Wheeler: so we can't just jump in with a new slogan, and we can't just jump in and say right. We're gonna call them at this today, you know, rebrand it, and it will be different. That changing the name won't make it different overnight.
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Hannah Wheeler: and
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Hannah Wheeler: and I think the resistance, as you say, to use the word institutional.
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Hannah Wheeler: You know our challenge is as a police service that we have to be really practical. and it requires us to be really unambiguous and apolitical. and I realize that's a bit of a contradiction being in the met, because you're in a very political space
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Hannah Wheeler: every day very political. But we need to maintain our leadership. Credibility with all communities, all staff and officers, and all stakeholders.
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Hannah Wheeler: and institutional as a descript, is quite ambiguous.
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Hannah Wheeler: The actual definition that at first in gave, I think, is about nearly 50 words long. It's it's that it's a long
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Hannah Wheeler: definition, and people understanding in different ways. Some people infer that it means we're all racist
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Hannah Wheeler: Mac version, Mac first, and definition requires no racist, but it's so broad it's hard to see where we
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Hannah Wheeler: all racist, and then, when we how we move out of that.
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Hannah Wheeler: you know sort of branding.
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Hannah Wheeler: and you know, and if we do say we're institutional institutionally. Racists were then branded as woke and out of touch
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Hannah Wheeler: and just being right on. So for us it makes sense to just
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Hannah Wheeler: accept that it's.
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Hannah Wheeler: We need to strong, unambiguous, definite language. We need to absolutely engender profound
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Hannah Wheeler: change. describe what the problem is.
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Hannah Wheeler: and deal with it properly.
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Hannah Wheeler: And once and for all. we have systemic issues that we do actually need to tackle.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much, Hannah. I don't know whether we're all in sync here. I was just about to go to Rob, and then his hand came up, which is quite, quite impressive. Really, Rod, you want to come in there on those points.
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Rod Jarman: Yeah. First of all.
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Rod Jarman: I think he is in a really difficult position to be talking about this. It's really unfair to to compress somebody in there with it, but i'll start off. and my role. When I was at a university in the
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Rod Jarman: I actually went to the Home Affairs Select Committee and argued that the term institution of racism was no longer useful for policing on on on several grounds, one of which was this issue about definition.
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Rod Jarman: also the issue about the fact that those people who are
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Rod Jarman: racist within the organization can hide behind it, and it doesn't give you that opportunity to really really focus down on people who are committing problems.
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Rod Jarman: However.
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Rod Jarman: what I have seen in the last 10 years or so is a movement away from many of the at least, and principles. and a sort of reduction in terms of prioritizing of them.
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Rod Jarman: So I think somebody talked before about.
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Rod Jarman: Many of the actions were completed.
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Rod Jarman: The actions, many of them, were long term, just ways of working. So they got signed off as we did this action
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Rod Jarman: 10 years later. You you look at it again. You think we're not doing action now. We might have done it then, but it's it's moved.
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Rod Jarman: One of the concerns for me is that when you have that sort of slip
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Rod Jarman: and you have the amount of angst that we have at the moment about policing
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Rod Jarman: You're getting caught on. One word is problematic.
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Rod Jarman: and for everybody it will be much simpler to just say why we're worrying about this word. We understand. This is systemic problem around homophobia, around misogyny and around racism.
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Rod Jarman: If they want to call it Socialism, let them call it institutional. The reality is is a systematic problem that we've got to deal with, and we need to deal with it very quickly.
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Rod Jarman: and I also think that what was probably one of the reasons why Casey will have much more opportunity to make the change
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Rod Jarman: is the previously the reports
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Rod Jarman: separated these 3 elements. So it was a chunk
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Rod Jarman: of police behavior about racism, a chunk around homophobia, a chunk around
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Rod Jarman: women. When you put them all together. You're talking about a significant chunk of society. You're not talking about part of society or dealing with minority groups. You're dealing with the majority of society fit into these
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Rod Jarman: into one of these groups.
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Rod Jarman: and therefore, if we can't get it right to policing terms, we have no chance of turning around what one is talking about in terms of confidence in police.
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Rod Jarman: because we are dealing with wide scale, lack of confidence, and not something that you could put in a box and say. Well, that's a political issue about small group of people. So my view would now be a, and has been for a few years. We have to accept the term institutional, and we just have to go on sorting out, and all the rest of this.
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Rod Jarman: It's becoming a diversion from people like Lynn and Mark I'm.
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Rod Jarman: I know very well to mark a a bit who are absolutely committed to making a difference.
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Rod Jarman: It's a chance to getting side swiped by
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Rod Jarman: this lack of desire to be institutional. And of course it goes on that there's also we've done the homophobic misogyny and race. But we've also got corruption.
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Rod Jarman: so we had the allegation that it was institutionally corrupt, which also was denied. Trace away. So there there's a
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Rod Jarman: from a leadership point of view. I think it's about time the leaders got up and said.
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Rod Jarman: Don't worry about the words. We need to get it right, and it sounds from how they doing all of that. They just stuck with the language.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much. I'd like to turn to Ron Locke. Actually, please. Is there any point you'd like to make on that rod
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Jonathan Jackson: look
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Ron Lock: too many wrongs. And yeah, it's.
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Ron Lock: it is yeah, it's. It's tricky in terms of
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Ron Lock: similar to Hannah's situation. But just to be quite clear. I'm speaking on my behalf, and not for the chiefs. So I think the question is around, why didn't the met accept it, so I don't know. I don't really know the answer. I've listened to the explanation
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Ron Lock: from the Commissioner, which is similar to what Hannah has given us.
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Ron Lock: so I
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Ron Lock: I don't understand that, rationale. What I will say to you is majority of black communities. I understand that term quite well. including Stephen Lawrence's mother.
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Ron Lock: but also mean as Mormon.
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Ron Lock: So
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Ron Lock: a lot of them, I've already commented, are disappointed with the Commissioner's decision. It's not this Commissioner. Again. I think other chiefs are giving the same line.
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Ron Lock: so all, I think, could be accepting that time mainly to further uncomfortable questions. Maybe.
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Ron Lock: but both explanations wherever from 99 or now
460
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Ron Lock: they are not saying Police are racist or police officers are racist.
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Ron Lock: No one's saying that. But often, when it's explained, people so refer to that sometimes. so we should have accepted it in 9 to 9.
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Ron Lock: Maybe that could have triggered more actions and implemented change Otherwise, you know.
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Ron Lock: all this time later, 25 years we have in the same findings.
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Ron Lock: so as a black person and a police officer.
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Ron Lock: I hope in 5 or 10 years time, whenever it is our future leaders
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Ron Lock: for the address this issue.
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Ron Lock: as it's important to black communities, but also it shows
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Ron Lock: some emotional awareness and community of trauma that is affecting the community.
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Ron Lock: I commend a please Federations chain, for there was a bit of a surprise accepting the term.
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Ron Lock: because that is one of the first steps of moving forward. So.
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Ron Lock: Yeah, I I'll leave that there for now, John.
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Ron Lock: I like someone else, though. Thank you.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much. Yes, too many around somebody else. But No, thank you very much indeed. Okay, Just because I'm conscious of I'm going to move on to the one of the final themes which is about, Where does the Metropolitan Police go from here? Post Casey?
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Jonathan Jackson: And also, what does reform look like? And i'm actually gonna go to Dr. Laura Hammond to to pick up on this point, please, or if you would, you mentioned it in your some of your discussion. Prior. What do you think?
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Laura Hammond: So? I think again, it's not something that necessarily the can do
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Laura Hammond: in isolation. I think it needs, and I think this is possibly something that's been lacking
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Laura Hammond: historically is actually involving those who are impacted by these issues day. And it should be
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Laura Hammond: that the communities
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Laura Hammond: consulted about what is it?
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Laura Hammond: The sort of a successful response effectively tackling this issue would look like. What is it that we want to see? They should be involved in the kind of Co. Production of effective responses
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Laura Hammond: they need to be consulted, saying things that we want to recruit, and we will try and recruit more diverse police forces.
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Laura Hammond: But actually speaking to and understanding the barriers, the issues
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Laura Hammond: from those involved from those communities about why people won't necessarily want to put themselves forward to go into that kind of career role, and how things
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Laura Hammond: working with them to develop effective responses. It's going to be the way forward, and I mean just picking up it's not something we necessarily talk about so much here.
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Laura Hammond: but particularly in relation to violence against women and girls
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Laura Hammond: actually speaking to those with lifted experiences, I said at the beginning, speaking to victims about their experiences about the police response. understanding and and growing from that involving them.
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Laura Hammond: As I said it's experts which effectively they are.
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Laura Hammond: and using evidence from all of the stakeholders to make sure that we are implementing
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Laura Hammond: effective a solution, but all going to meet the objectives, the necessary objectives. because it's all very well. Say, you know, these are the things we want to achieve, but we need to work out how
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Laura Hammond: we can get there, what those tangible mechanisms are for getting there, and how we can understand when we have got there, and what that success looks like.
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Laura Hammond: and then moving on from that, it's more
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Laura Hammond: got to work. If we just say right. That's okay. We've done it with tick that folks I mean, people have been referring in the chat to kind of this tick box approach, and this case you have said about the same initiative. I
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Laura Hammond: increasing this historically. Always be very active. Okay, we're going to put these one out. We're going to put these wise out. What we need to be thinking about long term is how we can prevent those fires from occurring. In the first place, we shouldn't ever be in a position where we're having to deal with this level of
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Laura Hammond: systemic problem.
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Laura Hammond: we should have been able to, and we could, if we do it more effectively.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much, Laura, just to encourage participants in the virtual audience, please. If you do, we can be close to the Q. A. Section now. So if you would like to put your questions in the Q. A. Box, please please feel free to do so, and that just to pick up on those points that Laura may, but also just more widely reform.
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Jonathan Jackson: What does it look like? Where is it going to come from who is involved. What do we think?
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Hannah Wheeler: Well, I yeah, I I agree
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Hannah Wheeler: entirely with what Laura just said.
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Hannah Wheeler: We need to involve and we need to co-produce. and we need to consult. And actually we don't. We don't go to consultation with a plan? And say, what do you think?
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Hannah Wheeler: We go out to communities and go. What do you want to see?
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Hannah Wheeler: Where do you want us to go?
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Hannah Wheeler: You know what aren't we doing? What would you like us to see, do. What are we doing that that we could do better.
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Hannah Wheeler: But you know, really have that sense of have that sense of co-production as rather than us, you know, setting our stall out and saying, this is what we're going to do.
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Hannah Wheeler: because we might be getting it completely wrong in so many areas. I mean Laura touched on violence against women and girls.
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Hannah Wheeler: We haven't invested
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Hannah Wheeler: in that in the past, you know we've invested. We had a violent crime task. Force. Why, Don't, we have a violence against women and girls task force.
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Hannah Wheeler: You know it's still serious, violent crime and it's endemic.
509
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Hannah Wheeler: So we need to. We are reforming that we we're doing Operation Blue Stone
510
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Hannah Wheeler: Operation Cetera. So all the work around that around really listening to victims voices.
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Hannah Wheeler: our seldom heard communities as well about how this is really impacting on them. We really need to be, you know, listening hard.
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Hannah Wheeler: We do have
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Hannah Wheeler: members of the community in for all sorts of different reasons. You know. Panels we have.
514
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Hannah Wheeler: and
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Hannah Wheeler: people in that have had contact adversely or positively listening to their feedback, trying to understand where we went wrong where we might shape, You know our future.
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Hannah Wheeler: our future work. The College of Policing, are currently out of consultation on their new codes of practice for ethical and professional behavior.
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Our turnaround plan, the consultation period for that has been extended to the end of this month.
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Hannah Wheeler: and that's really actively happening, and it's it's in. Its it's in its second version. Now very much changing as we are. Again. Co-producing and consulting. you know, actually listening to what people want.
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Hannah Wheeler: So there's lots to do. There really is lots to do, but we're up for the challenge, and we want to hear from people about how we can get this. Get this right? You know we need to. We need to change with people, but we need
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Hannah Wheeler: to show people that we're. We're serious about this, and we absolutely are. We're all passionate about this absolutely passionate.
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Hannah Wheeler: and we can't see any more harm coming to our communities. You know we have. We have to do better.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much, Rod. I hope you don't mind. I know your hand was raised first, but I think Laura may be building upon the hat point that Hannah made. So that's okay, Laura, would you? Are you? Is that dry? So I got that right?
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Laura Hammond: Yeah, it. It it was just just because it was pertinent, because I very much agree with what I'm saying. And you know it is encouraging to see these kinds of
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Laura Hammond: steps being taken. This kind of for the consultancy, because that is what we know
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Laura Hammond: what is needed. But I wanted to come back to one of the things I said earlier on, which is also about including all police
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Laura Hammond: and police officers and staff from all levels in this, because one of the things that came out from operation. Ceteria Blue Stone is the fact that transformational change is never going to be possible
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Laura Hammond: unless stuff are included involved in this. Those voices from all levels of listen to and taken into account. They are key stakeholders to.
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Laura Hammond: and we can't just have leaders so same what they think the most effective responses are because they're not the ones who are dealing with it on the ground. They said. A lot of
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Laura Hammond: conversations with offices revealed that very many of them, the majority of which are excellent police officers, who are really trying to do all their camp to make a positive difference and serve the public in the best way they know possible.
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Laura Hammond: They need to be made part of the journey. and they can't be ignored, and historically and for too long they have been.
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Hannah Wheeler: and all the power
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Laura Hammond: is but the higher the levels of the police forces. But they need to be
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Laura Hammond: critically involved in today.
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Hannah Wheeler: Yeah, no, I I absolutely agree. And and that is happening. We're very much cognizant of the fact that we are
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Hannah Wheeler: as leaders reaching out at at every level, speaking to police, staff, police officers at every rank, every level, every department, you know. Everyone's voice
536
01:04:02.680 --> 01:04:07.070
Hannah Wheeler: is valued, and everyone has. you know, lived experience of dealing with
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dealing with this, and they're far better equipped when they see it on a daily basis that than we are, you know, drafting guidance and things. So you know.
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Hannah Wheeler: Yeah, absolutely.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much. Both. Raj: You were very patient there. I'm sure you have. It's very sore from holding up with that. But yes, sorry. Beg your pardon.
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Rod Jarman: No, no problem at all. I I I think, Jonathan, this might time with your specialism. So one of the things that I think we look back at police history right back to peel
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01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:52.360
Rod Jarman: this debate around how much the police should be focused on community, and how much the police should be focused on the State as cost, and lots of issues, you know, and this part of the development of policing and the model here, and I think one of the challenges we've got. At the moment
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01:04:52.450 --> 01:04:57.460
Rod Jarman: Hannah was talking about how disillusioned offices were
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01:04:57.850 --> 01:05:09.000
Rod Jarman: in in their role, how lack of support they felt in their role. And as we've for all. No, I'm not blaming you for this. But as there's been a withdraw from labor policing
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Rod Jarman: mainly on the grounds of funding. But then also that was made even worse by Covid. So this removal away from face-to-face contact. The offices are getting no positive feedback from community.
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01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:28.200
Rod Jarman: They're getting very little feedback from their supervisors because they're too distant from them.
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Rod Jarman: and they're in the ability, then, to create this toxic subculture amongst each other, because actually you got to deal with the stresses that you're dealing with on a daily basis, and it's one way of dealing with them.
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01:05:41.580 --> 01:05:43.340
Rod Jarman: So I think
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Rod Jarman: the more we can get the community involved in what we're doing. The closer we can build those links, and the better we can support the offices, those the sorts of reforms we should be looking at. I think she's what Laura was talking about
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Rod Jarman: rather than thinking about structural changes to an organization which is just going to create another set of the same problems in different organizations.
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01:06:06.160 --> 01:06:22.370
Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much, for you mentioned the word peel. I'm going to hold back, though. Have the the resistance, is it is it's definitely it. Just because I'm I'm conscious we need to get on to the questions from the audience. But there is just if you don't mind just a chance privilege just once again.
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Jonathan Jackson: It was part of the of the brief. Today Royal Commission. Can I come to Ron Winch, please? Royal commission is it time
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Ron Winch: I think it could be? I I think
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Ron Winch: the last Royal Commission was
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Ron Winch: yeah, 1,964 I think it could well be. And I think if if the response Isn't felt to be appropriate from
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Ron Winch: central government and political leaders, then I think we may well be going
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Ron Winch: along that route for Royal Commission.
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Ron Winch: These debates have been had haven't They around the structure of policing generally across the country, where the 43 police
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Ron Winch: in separate forces are is an appropriate model for us. You can have a a view on localism, on whether the met is is too big an organization, perhaps, and whether a Royal Commission would would tend to resolve that
559
01:07:17.210 --> 01:07:22.570
Ron Winch: my own view is that I think we're ready for a Royal Commission, because we've been talking about these issues
560
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Ron Winch: for so long, and it's important
561
01:07:25.310 --> 01:07:27.710
Ron Winch: to sort policing out
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Ron Winch: on a national level
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Ron Winch: to be able to say, actually.
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Ron Winch: you know, I take and I see on the chat now. How many years does a Royal Commission take to implement? And it's a fair point.
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Ron Winch: But how many years has it been since Mcpherson. How many years has it been since Scarman? How many years has it been since Robert Mark said. The measure of a good police services that it
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Ron Winch: catches more criminals than it employs, and that was going back to the early seventys, and we can even talk about
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01:07:55.770 --> 01:08:03.200
Ron Winch: the golden age of policing the immediate post lawyer of the 1,900 fiftys, when. and the actual fact was that policing was probably more corrupt
568
01:08:03.330 --> 01:08:09.740
Ron Winch: than it's ever been in that period of time, and yet it was seen to be a golden era. My own personal view
569
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Ron Winch: agree with me or otherwise, is that we are ready for a Royal Commission. I think it's. I think it's necessary.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much for for that point. I want to come on now to some of the questions from the from the virtual audience. And this is kind of a bit of a quick fire round, to use that sort of phrase. But Vicki says, how does the panel think we can attract people to consider policing as a worthwhile career?
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Jonathan Jackson: While the current narrative continues. I don't know, Hannah, do you want to pick this one up.
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Hannah Wheeler: Yeah, Absolutely.
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Hannah Wheeler: Yeah.
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Hannah Wheeler: really, really good point. And when I speak to all the new new probationers that start, that's what I say to them. You know this is this is a difficult job option you've gone for in the current climate
575
01:09:02.069 --> 01:09:04.410
Hannah Wheeler: people who
576
01:09:04.479 --> 01:09:08.359
Hannah Wheeler: stand up and and join the police service.
577
01:09:08.740 --> 01:09:17.109
Hannah Wheeler: They're subject to a lot of consternation worry from their family and friends, you know they're called out on it. Why do you want to join that?
578
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Hannah Wheeler: You know that institution? Why do you want to join that? You know
579
01:09:21.750 --> 01:09:26.520
Hannah Wheeler: place where you're not going to be safe? You might not be psychologically safe, physically safe.
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Hannah Wheeler: And
581
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Hannah Wheeler: but you know, in the words of you know, one of my colleagues who's sort of currently
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Hannah Wheeler: doing a sort of campaign for the met, you know. If not if not you, who you know you've got to be within an organization to try and change it and implement, change and be a force for change.
583
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Hannah Wheeler: and you have to.
584
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Hannah Wheeler: You have to remember that the role of a you know police officer is to help people, and that's what we do.
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Hannah Wheeler: and and my role as a leader is to help.
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Hannah Wheeler: you know, enable officers and staff to do that and make sure they've got a safe
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Hannah Wheeler: place to work they feel safe to report. They're not.
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Hannah Wheeler: you know, discriminated against. You know. Our policies and procedures are not, you know, are proportionate. and that they're looked after and that we prioritize
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Hannah Wheeler: health, well-being neurodiverse conditions, You know everything across the board
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Hannah Wheeler: we make policing.
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Hannah Wheeler: you know a positive experience for everyone, but that that is difficult at the moment, but we really we really have to push on those those positives.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you, Hannah Ronald. Run, Loch, I beg your P.
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Jonathan Jackson: Are you, you able to pick any of those points up at all? Thank you. How many are you? Yeah, Just agree with that, I think.
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Ron Lock: depends who we want to join. and the why as well. I think
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Ron Lock: we need to go back. It's been mentioned before around other policing there for the community or the state, and there's that sort of dialogue that often happens. But for me that public service people looking to do good
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Ron Lock: to come and join us and to serve the community. I think sometimes it probably not
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Ron Lock: a truck to the right people, and sometimes a narrative. Currently they run fights in crime. Pursuing criminals.
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Ron Lock: We may get the wrong sort of people coming in to whatever fighting crime looks like.
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01:11:23.040 --> 01:11:33.720
Ron Lock: Actually, our job here, we should just be there to make relationships and prevent crime. Of course, during that we do have to look up the bad guys, but we need to do a bit more as well one
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Ron Lock: on retention and just finding out why people leaving us. Because I think we're missing that big while we're trying to get new ones in.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you. I laura's her hand up.
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Laura Hammond: I was going to say that I wanted to draw on what you said earlier on exactly that. But yes, of course we really do need to be thinking about how to recruit into and make people want to come into policing
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Laura Hammond: because it's. Hannah said, we're not going to start to see those broader changes unless that happened.
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Laura Hammond: But often very long did the idea of retention of those great police offices that are already there. We do doing all they can to provide the best as possible. And I think
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Laura Hammond: again, if you look at the statistics and the attrition ranks of offices from
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Laura Hammond: different groups.
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01:12:27.240 --> 01:12:29.260
Laura Hammond: right so female offices.
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01:12:29.320 --> 01:12:34.160
Laura Hammond: and on the basis of a lot of the problems again identified and kind of
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01:12:34.230 --> 01:12:41.160
Laura Hammond: noted. In the case of report. We're not doing enough to support those offices who are already there in the wrong.
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01:12:41.530 --> 01:12:42.920
Laura Hammond: and I think that
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01:12:42.990 --> 01:12:47.200
Laura Hammond: we need to be careful. That is it lost in all of this kind of discussion.
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01:12:47.600 --> 01:12:57.080
Jonathan Jackson: Thank you. Hello, could we? I I dare to say, make the point quick. That's very rude of me, I know, but I just want to get through some of the questions as well, so and it could the point be a little. Be quick.
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Hannah Wheeler: Yeah, no. It was just to say we need to put extra support and care in how we look after our people. You know how we we retain them, so we are doing. Stay interviews now where people say that they are thinking of leaving.
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Hannah Wheeler: We have what the equivalent of an exit interview. But we have an interview, saying, you know, what can we do to make you stay. What is it that that we need to change?
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01:13:18.130 --> 01:13:24.490
Hannah Wheeler: Because people don't want to leave policing because of policing they leave because of localized problems
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01:13:24.700 --> 01:13:34.720
Hannah Wheeler: that they feel unable to deal with like support or process, or they're in the wrong position. Or, we need to, you know, be more flexible around what their needs are. So yeah.
617
01:13:35.340 --> 01:13:36.370
Hannah Wheeler: we're looking at that.
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01:13:36.510 --> 01:13:50.360
Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much, Hannah. There's a question here. I can't see the second, am I? But it's from Tom. Section 29 of the Police Reform Act, 2,002 allows each constabulary to put their own internal complaints system.
619
01:13:50.460 --> 01:14:05.000
Jonathan Jackson: How can the public have any confidence that complaints raised by rank and file offices are being taken seriously when there is no external body monitoring how those investigations are undertaken, and Ron Wynch, Can I come to you with that one to start? That's all right.
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01:14:09.210 --> 01:14:14.600
Ron Winch: Yeah. I think I think individual forces have perhaps their own kind of individual.
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01:14:14.740 --> 01:14:21.580
Ron Winch: clearly individual geographical locations and in individual challenges that face them in relation to the
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01:14:21.840 --> 01:14:29.380
Ron Winch: misconduct, voice, misconduct, and i'm not sure. The regulations always help chief offices.
623
01:14:29.690 --> 01:14:39.710
Ron Winch: you know, ensure that the right people, or the rather the wrong people Aren't allowed to remain in policing, and this comes back to my other point around the fact that
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01:14:40.030 --> 01:14:45.000
Ron Winch: you know we need to ensure that there's consistency across the board, and we hear all sorts of different
625
01:14:45.240 --> 01:14:55.960
Ron Winch: issues from different forces and different decision makers in different parts of the country that might take a different view, and it does seem to be a lack of consistency in this age of 150.
626
01:14:56.140 --> 01:15:10.810
Ron Winch: You know communications that that travel, you know very, very quickly. So you know we have things happening in the north of the country and the metropolitan forces and behaviors that might be tolerated elsewhere.
627
01:15:11.490 --> 01:15:19.560
Ron Winch: I don't think it all altogether helps, so I think consistency is really important. and I think consistent consistency of message
628
01:15:19.650 --> 01:15:30.050
Ron Winch: from senior officers. It's good to see. you know, input from the Federation. I have to say the tailor reforms that came in.
629
01:15:30.300 --> 01:15:36.000
Ron Winch: Gosh! You know best part of 15 years ago now, probably around
630
01:15:36.050 --> 01:15:43.630
Ron Winch: concepts of misconduct, gross misconduct, the use of independent legal chairs, chairing gross misconduct hearings.
631
01:15:43.660 --> 01:15:46.260
Ron Winch: and the consistency of decision making
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01:15:46.340 --> 01:15:49.600
Ron Winch: officers having the right of appeal.
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01:15:49.620 --> 01:15:50.670
Ron Winch: Of course.
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01:15:51.450 --> 01:15:57.000
Ron Winch: you know, when we consider misconduct regulations, and we consider gross misconduct.
635
01:15:58.240 --> 01:16:03.880
Ron Winch: you know, is in within the bounds of proportionality, and not
636
01:16:03.980 --> 01:16:08.810
Ron Winch: to the same extent that we see proof in a court of law. So
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01:16:08.870 --> 01:16:13.540
Ron Winch: you know, we need to understand that, and the public needs to have confidence that policing nationally
638
01:16:13.560 --> 01:16:20.340
Ron Winch: is prepared to make sure that not just warranted officers, but police staff members as well.
639
01:16:20.490 --> 01:16:22.350
The people who shouldn't be in the police service
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01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:24.110
Ron Winch: on tolerated.
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01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:34.010
Jonathan Jackson: Thank you very much, Ron. I'm good to go to pick up a question here. It says, do do the police need to involve academics
642
01:16:34.110 --> 01:16:37.850
Jonathan Jackson: and independent bodies and companies in a much more collaborative manner.
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01:16:37.960 --> 01:16:45.780
Jonathan Jackson: so as to tackle effectively some of the institutional aspects we've been talking about. Can I pick more, Laura Hammond on this one, please?
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01:16:46.920 --> 01:17:00.870
Laura Hammond: Well, I' not necessarily. Academics or not, as an isolated group? No; but what they do need is that for the stakeholder engagement, and to consider and fall from and use the evidence from all these different invested stakeholders, and
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01:17:01.190 --> 01:17:09.400
Laura Hammond: that actually addresses several of the comments that I've seen made in the Chat and the Q. A.
646
01:17:10.110 --> 01:17:13.860
Laura Hammond: We need those voices we need to
647
01:17:14.020 --> 01:17:18.370
Laura Hammond: understand the challenges. We can't make assumptions. And again.
648
01:17:19.120 --> 01:17:28.240
Laura Hammond: historically, what we tend to do is what we think is right. What we think is the best way forward with that actually actually speaking to those
649
01:17:28.410 --> 01:17:29.840
Laura Hammond: who can tell us
650
01:17:29.910 --> 01:17:39.620
Laura Hammond: what is needed, what the problems are. We're not listening to the voices and that's the voices of the community of the public.
651
01:17:39.810 --> 01:17:46.310
Laura Hammond: We're not listening to the voices of any of the different groups, and i'd like to for as well one of them was made about
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01:17:46.480 --> 01:17:49.020
Laura Hammond: disabilities, and you know.
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01:17:49.030 --> 01:17:50.220
Laura Hammond: considering
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01:17:50.390 --> 01:17:59.270
Laura Hammond: all of the different involving those who is being integral in the development of any
655
01:17:59.820 --> 01:18:08.660
Laura Hammond: solutions to these problems and issues identified, then we're going to be having the same conversations in another 1020, 30 years
656
01:18:08.760 --> 01:18:10.580
Laura Hammond: time. So
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01:18:11.010 --> 01:18:17.080
Laura Hammond: no, not necessarily academics. But I do say that what we have found in a lot of work we've done is
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01:18:17.420 --> 01:18:27.910
Laura Hammond: anything that can be done to facilitate and open up those discussions. It's not necessarily the police to go out and have those conversations, and get honest responses
659
01:18:28.190 --> 01:18:38.330
Laura Hammond: necessarily. So, looking at ways in which we can give everybody need for footing any full voice, and have those open conversations that transparent dialogue.
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01:18:38.400 --> 01:18:40.970
Laura Hammond: So if it's in a facilitative manner.
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01:18:41.010 --> 01:18:49.340
Laura Hammond: or if it's in helping, gather that evidence, and I know some of the comments have been made about consultancy. It's very different, more consulting different groups.
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01:18:49.580 --> 01:18:58.200
Laura Hammond: but anything that we can do to make that process more effective and efficient, and helping and inform an appropriate and effective response. And I think is that
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01:18:58.330 --> 01:19:00.180
Laura Hammond: important good thing.
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01:19:00.820 --> 01:19:19.300
Ron Lock: Okay, Thank you very much, Laura Rod. But again very patient with you. I mean, yeah, i'll keep you very brief, but I think yes, that should involve them is end of the day will save us a lot of money. A lot of policing does a lot of pilots and a lot of parts we do testing somehow. It always works, and
665
01:19:19.300 --> 01:19:27.640
Ron Lock: often people use it to get promoted. But one good move by. The Commissioner is appointing Professor Larry Sherman
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01:19:27.960 --> 01:19:35.860
Ron Lock: as a first scientific or chief scientific officer for the May. Often that's a positive move. What you up there as an expert
667
01:19:35.960 --> 01:19:43.520
Ron Lock: who's going to give you independent advice for that evidence. Best strategic decision making. So I think that was quite small.
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01:19:45.150 --> 01:19:52.880
Jonathan Jackson: Okay, I I i'm going to go back to Laura hammered actually, because, being a a an expert in evidence based policing Laura, you want to speak
669
01:19:55.540 --> 01:20:04.450
Laura Hammond: looking at a lot of the comments, and I think I would defer to to some of the comments that being made in the chat about the lived experiences being
670
01:20:04.610 --> 01:20:08.160
Laura Hammond: so powerful, but they need to be utilized more and
671
01:20:08.270 --> 01:20:14.230
Laura Hammond: particularly one of the you know.
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01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:33.900
Laura Hammond: A lot of it is all being done wrong. Refer to that right, the beginning, and we need to be thinking about it from time of the month. And, as I said at the very beginning, I think we all have a wrong plan, and lots of people have very valid things that Haven't been listened to. We need to listen to and understand those different
673
01:20:33.970 --> 01:20:36.720
Laura Hammond: up in some perspectives, and they need to be
674
01:20:36.890 --> 01:20:37.990
Laura Hammond: in technical
675
01:20:38.290 --> 01:20:42.220
Laura Hammond: to what the map does and what policing does. Moving forward.
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01:20:42.950 --> 01:20:45.440
Jonathan Jackson: Thank you. Rod: yeah, I'm in. Thank you.
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01:20:46.030 --> 01:20:55.340
Rod Jarman: Yeah? Well, all I want to really say is my my my concerns is that we tend to think about academics and evidence based policing being about what the police do.
678
01:20:55.740 --> 01:21:00.290
Rod Jarman: and that tends to take us away from the police is only part of any solution.
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01:21:00.530 --> 01:21:09.940
Rod Jarman: and the need to be thinking much more across organizations, across partnerships, across communities rather than just what can the police do? And one of you know
680
01:21:10.310 --> 01:21:16.650
Rod Jarman: somebody talks in here about Betsy. Thank her being here being there before Larry Sherman in that sort of
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01:21:16.760 --> 01:21:28.710
Rod Jarman: pseudo role Previously. I think one of the concerns I I have with all of it is that the more we talk about evidence-based policing the more we think about. If we do hot spot patrols we there for 5 min and off we go.
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Rod Jarman: We we may be disturbing or dealing with that issue, but we're not actually building the relationship with the community and integrating policing into the community, which is the only way we will recruit and retain people.
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Rod Jarman: What we're doing is saying. We can superp.
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Rod Jarman: solve your problems.
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Rod Jarman: and I think policing too long. This has pushed itself down the route of being the savior of everything, rather than being the facilitator of groups coming together to solve problems out.
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you again. I I we have a a question here from Greg. Which is it? Is it time to look at a drop description of a police officer and make it unique to the needs of each force. The needs, for example, of the Met or West Midlands are different to those of northern coast Sussex.
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Jonathan Jackson: I do. I'm going to put that out to the group. Actually, whoever would want to have a look at that one. So
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Hannah Wheeler: i'm happy to come in. And I think that yeah, that's that does sound like a good idea, and we do it, for all
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Hannah Wheeler: are other different roles that we have and responsibilities. We have a job description.
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Hannah Wheeler: so why not have one? We have one for a neighborhood officer, and they're different to a patrol officer.
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Hannah Wheeler: So we have kind of very
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Hannah Wheeler: basic expectations. But I think
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Hannah Wheeler: this has almost been overtaken by our sort of direct entry constables and direct entry detectives, so they're not treading the traditional pathway of you know, having to do that 2 years.
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Hannah Wheeler: you know.
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Hannah Wheeler: on the ground in uniform. So that would have been your traditional. That's what you would do in every force.
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Hannah Wheeler: But I do think, yeah, the needs of you know, a very different rural force somewhere else in the country compared to
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Hannah Wheeler: you know, one of the B cus in in the Met. It's a very different job, and there are very different expectations from communities, you know. And internally. So yeah, it's no good point.
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Jonathan Jackson: But, Ron: which
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Jonathan Jackson: Thank you, Anna.
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Ron Winch: Yeah, thanks, Josh. I I agree, and and I agree. I hope you will. I think the this for me, and You'd expect us to be touching on this, I guess, because it does come into the profession. The broader professionalization of the police service is this
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Ron Winch: debate at the moment around Degree entry, and you would expect us, perhaps, to be commenting on that
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Ron Winch: from the perspective of a higher education institution. And I think they. you know, I agree with Hannah, and I I think that there it may be certainly areas for individual job descriptions for offices within areas of the country and different forces in in different roles.
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Ron Winch: but I think they
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Ron Winch: educational standards need to be maintained across the board, as it were, particularly in relation to
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Ron Winch: professionalization of policing, because I think part of part of the Casey Really, part of addressing the Casey Review is to ensure that we get
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Ron Winch: not just police training, but the professionalization of the service right, and we and we adhere to
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Ron Winch: the kind of level 6
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Ron Winch: qualification that that we need for a police officer. Now, whether that is a a degree, or whether that's a another level. 6 qualification that's led by the College of Policing.
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Ron Winch: I think that needs to be maintained. It it. Do you need a degree to be a an effective and efficient police officer? No, I know many police officers in my service that
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Ron Winch: Haven't had a great degree. They wouldn't want a degree. They've been perfectly capable, effective, and efficient police officers, but I can say. but I haven't met anybody in policing
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Ron Winch: that Hasn't had a degree that wouldn't have benefited in terms of their service. Delivery from being a degree holder
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Ron Winch: mit ctl, and and whether that's a level 6 qualification via the College of Policing, or whether that's a formal degree route through a Higher Education Institute or the Police Constable Development. Sorry police, constable degree, 150
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Ron Winch: apprenticeship
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Ron Winch: is another matter, and of course there's cost for forces here, isn't there in relation to the apprenticeship levy
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Ron Winch: in terms of but ere
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Ron Winch: part of the answer to the issues that Casey has highlighted in terms of getting that critical, massive police officers that we had the same it
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01:25:57.820 --> 01:26:07.330
Ron Winch: discussion much the same discussion. Didn't we around the nursing profession some decades ago. So I think part of it is professionally accredited qualifications
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Ron Winch: which forms the requirement
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Ron Winch: for you know, a professional practice, and whether we have also have a certificate professional practice. The officers need to get reacredited, I think, is another debate, but I think
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Ron Winch: the broader professionalization of the service can start to address some of those areas that Casey is highlighted. Yes.
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Jonathan Jackson: thank you. Well. Rod, if you could keep your over back to within a minute. I think that would be great
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Rod Jarman: so quickly. Firstly, I don't think the degree is important, but I think the skills are on, talked about in terms of critical analysis, critical reflection, and being able to develop where it's really important predominantly, because policing is not only going to go through a change because of what we're talking about here.
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Rod Jarman: But the more digital aspects of policing grow. the skilled level, and the requirement to retrain, and for officers to be able to develop the skills, to educate themselves, to continually retrain
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Rod Jarman: will grow larger and larger in the future.
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Rod Jarman: And you know, I I I think one of the other things for the offices you've been in the service for a while has been absolutely awfully crazy about the change with the we've not done anything to look at. How can we offer them
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Rod Jarman: something to reflect the skills and capabilities they have, and get them qualifications they can use in another career, and we need to actually recognize that police officers do a phenomenally difficult job with very high level skills, and that should be recognized in a way that can be taken out of policing as well as on the way in.
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Jonathan Jackson: Okay, Thank you very much, Rod. Now, I think i'm sure we could debate these topics for the rest of the day, if not the rest of the year. But unfortunately time has run out. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all our panel members. So Hannah
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Jonathan Jackson: Ron went from Locke, Laura, Hammond, and Rojamin for giving up their time this afternoon, and such giving such wonderful contributions. Again. I would like to iterate my thanks to policing insights for sponsoring to the College of Policing, and of course, to Carolina and Joe for helping to
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Jonathan Jackson: keep the operation running smoothly
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Jonathan Jackson: so, and of course, most importantly, to the audience members for their participation, their comments, and and for their views; and we very much appreciate it. So I enjoy the rest of this sunny afternoon. And thank you very much indeed, and take care.
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Laura Hammond: Thank you, Jonathan. Good afternoon.
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Hannah Wheeler: Thank you.
